Welcome back to the Cosmere, my peeps and chickens! This week we rejoin Navani and Kaladin as they face their “new normal” in their own places and their own ways. Politics, spren, fabrials, nightmares… all this and more. Join us for the discussion, won’t you?
Reminder: We’ll be discussing spoilers for the entirety of the series up until now. If you haven’t read ALL of the published entries of The Stormlight Archive (this includes Edgedancer and Dawnshard as well as the entirety of Rhythm of War), best to wait to join us until you’re done.
This week’s discussion contains no external Cosmere spoilers.
A: Before we get started, I’d like to thank you all for your understanding and support last week. Dementia is a killer. It destroys your brain—not just the ability to think clearly or remember things, but also the ability to make your body work properly. I’ll say one thing for it; by the time someone dies from dementia, it’s a relief for everyone. You’ve done your grieving along the way as you watched them slowly disappear, and when they’re gone you can’t help being glad they’re no long suffering the pain, confusion, and fear. Still hard to say goodbye, but… there it is. Anyway, thank you all.
Heralds: Palah (Pailiah, Paliah). Truthwatchers. Learned/Giving. Role: Scholar.
A: The obvious connection is Navani’s agreement to lead her scholars under Raboniel’s “observation.” Kaladin, while his section is significant for other reasons, doesn’t reflect much of any of the Heralds in this chapter.
Icon: The Banner and Spears for a Kaladin POV, though it starts with Navani.
Epigraph: Rhythm of War, Page 1.
I approach this project with an equal mixture of trepidation and hope. And I know not which should rule.
A: I still don’t know whether this is Raboniel or Navani, but I can’t help thinking Navani would be unwilling to express her concerns on paper. Especially not in a notebook she was sharing with Raboniel.
P: I agree that this sounds more like Raboniel. Though I reserve the right to change my mind later!
Chapter Recap
WHO: Navani, Kaladin
WHERE: Urithiru
WHEN: 1175.4.6.5 (morning of the day after Navani surrenders)
(Note: For the “when” notations, we are mostly using this wonderful timeline provided by the folks at The 17th Shard.)
RECAP: The day after the fall of Urithiru, Navani meets with Raboniel to begin her new role as leader of the human scholars under Fused rule. The initial conversation reveals new ideas and understanding to each of them, hinting at new ideas to come but complicated by the danger of giving them to the Fused. Meanwhile, Kaladin wrestles with a nightmare—apparently the first of the Moash-Odium collaboration—in which Moash again pushes Kaladin toward suicide. He wakes to the memory of the invasion, and is deeply relieved when Syl returns from her explorations through the ventilation system. Together, they prepare to set of in search of supplies and weapons.
Overall Reactions
A: The opening section of this chapter has Navani and Raboniel doing their best to manipulate one another, and it’s… not exactly hilarious, because too much hangs on it, but it’s fun to watch. It starts with the lack of servants, and I adore Navani:
So Navani allowed herself a small moment of pride when she stepped out of her rooms on the first full day of Urithiru’s occupation. Her hair was clean and braided, her simple havah pressed and neat, her makeup done.
A: I love this. She told Raboniel earlier that she had washed clothes and carried water before, and was not ashamed to do it again—and I think she has a right to a moment of pride here. Just a small moment, in light of all the larger issues, but a real one.
P: See here, I can dress myself!
A: I wonder how hard a havah is to get into… I can attest that braiding your own hair and having it look good when you haven’t done it for a while can be a bit of a trick, though. I don’t blame her at all for a sense of satisfaction in showing Raboniel that she’s perfectly capable of doing without servants.
Navani bowed precisely, just low enough to indicate obedience—but not low enough to imply subservience.
A: I know I’m kinda gushing about this (sorry), but I admire her resolution. She made the decision to surrender rather than get more people killed unnecessarily, but she’s also clear that she’s not humiliated by that choice, and absolutely not broken by it. She’s making clear and pragmatic decisions, and every one of them is a combination of protecting her people and maintaining as much independence as she can possibly finagle, for herself and for her people.
P: She’s very much, “I recognize your current superiority,” while also not submitting wholly to that superiority.
“I will organize my scholars, Ancient One,” Navani said, “and continue their research under your observation.”
“The wiser choice, and the more dangerous one, Navani Kholin.”
A: Dangerous, playing politics with a 7000-year-old politician, but… a worthwhile risk.
P: She’s definitely outclassed but in the long run, she does remarkably well.
“If you could improve the lives of your people manyfold, is that not worth abandoning self-governance? Look what we’ve done in mere minutes by sharing our knowledge.”
Shared only because of your threats, Navani thought, careful not to show that on her face. This wasn’t some free exchange. It doesn’t matter what you tell me, Raboniel. You can reveal any secret you desire—because I’m in your power. You can just kill me once you have everything you want.
A: I mean, Raboniel’s suggestion would be appealing to a lot of people, right? All sorts of new technology to make your lives easier, and all you have to give up is your freedom. Forgive me, but I’m just too cussed-western-independent to buy that line. It’s probably part of what makes me love Navani so much: She’ll make the pragmatic decision in the moment, but she’s not stupid. She knows perfectly well that Raboniel would cheerfully kill her and all the rest of humanity if it suited her ends, and she’s not going to let that happen if she can help it.
P: Our Navani definitely isn’t going to lie down and give humanity to the Fused. She plays her part, and perhaps too well later on, but the steel in her spine is strong, and she holds her own against Raboniel.
A: It’s absolutely delightful to see Navani making a few… pointed remarks, too:
“I would like to check on my scholars, Lady of Wishes, to see how they’re being treated, and find out the extent of our … losses.” That made one point clear, Navani hoped. Some of her friends had been murdered. She was not simply going to forget about that.
A: There is indeed steel there, as Raboniel is going to find out.
This was going to require a delicate balance, with both of them trying to play one another. Navani had to be explicitly careful not to let herself be taken in by Raboniel. That was one advantage Navani had over her scholars. She might never be worthy to join them, but she did have more experience with the real world of politics.
A: I can’t help thinking that her level of experience is… well, honestly, kinda pathetic compared to what we know of Raboniel’s experience. Still, politics is politics, and Raboniel’s position of supposed superiority sometimes makes her overconfident.
P: Raboniel is definitely overconfident, as are all of the Fused. Yet she still marvels at how much the humans have accomplished since the last desolation, in that they’ve discovered things the Fused know nothing about. It’s nice to see her impressed with Navani’s knowledge.
A: It really is. While she sometimes seems to sneer a bit, she has no hesitation in acknowledging and applauding the breakthroughs in technology.
Buy the Book
Rhythm of War
At this point we wouldn’t know, but Navani’s resistance will be very real—sometimes misguided by lack of information, sometimes brilliant, with lots of ups and downs—and ultimately successful.
Then she got to work on the real problem: planning how she was going to get them out of this mess.
A: That’s a real queen, right there.
Now to our Windrunner, last hope of Radiants in Urithiru:
Kaladin was awakened by rain. He blinked, feeling mist on his face and seeing a jagged sky lit by spears of lightning frozen in place—not fading, just hanging there, framed by black clouds in a constant boil.
…
The frozen jagged lightning bolts didn’t give off much illumination. Hadn’t he been in a place like this once? With omnipresent light, but a black sky?
P: And here is the first of Moash’s visions. I talk more about this in Bruised and Broken but I do want to say that Moash certainly starts out with a doozy of a dream for Kaladin. Jerk.
A: The descriptions here make me wonder if this is a real place that Odium is using as a setting, populated by Moash’s knowledge of Kaladin’s past. If so, where is it? Braize? It would be appropriate.
The swirling mist evaporated off the fallen figures and he found three young messenger boys in Amaram’s colors, killed by Kaladin’s spear. Three corpses, including his brother.
P: Of course, this is how Moash would begin. Let’s spear Kaladin through the heart first thing by having him kill his baby brother.
A: Horrible, cruel, vicious fiend. (But for the overall narrative, seeing Tien here is a reminder to the reader that Kaladin does feel responsible for Tien’s death, just as much as if he had held the spear. It’s that “all my fault” mentality that he needs to let go of, ultimately.)
I’m in the tower, he thought, remembering the events of the previous day. Storms. The place is controlled by the Fused. I barely got away.
P: I hated that Kaladin didn’t remember this during the dream. He knew it wasn’t real, but I think remembering the invasion might have grounded him instead of him flying into a panic.
A: It just hurts to know things he can’t recall. Still, it’s very realistic. I’ve had dreams where I couldn’t remember what had happened IRL, and it would have made a big difference.
Storms. The weight of what Kaladin had done hung above him, nearly as oppressive as the weight of the tower. He was alone, lost in the darkness, without Stormlight or anything to drink—let alone proper weapons. He needed to take care of not only himself, but a man in a coma.
P: Kaladin coming to grips with his situation in the occupied Tower is profound. He’s realizing how dire his situation actually is, and it’s complicated by Teft and the need to care for him. He’s got to balance his fugitive status with that of a surgeon and a Captain. He’s understood that the road ahead will be rough.
A: It clearly makes his life harder, having to balance those needs. At the same time, I suspect that without Teft to protect, Kaladin might very easily give in to despair. The necessity of caring for Teft drives him to move forward, and IMO he needs that impetus.
Why? Why couldn’t he have let go? Why did he keep fighting? Was it really for them? Or was it because he was selfish? Because he couldn’t let go and admit defeat?
P: This is Moash, influencing Kaladin as he’d hoped to do. “Don’t fall for it, Stormblessed!” I rant, even as I know he won’t. Life before death! Oh, Honor, I have so many feels!
Moash. He stood on the edge of the chasm near Kaladin. The man turned, and Kaladin saw his eyes—black pits. “People think you were merciful to us. But we both know the truth, don’t we? You did it for you. Not us. If you were truly merciful, you’d have given us easy deaths.”
P: I probably sound like a broken record but Moash can storm off forever. Kaladin did so much good in Bridge Four. For Bridge Four. He gave those slaves purpose, gave them companionship and community. He gave them something to live for, and Moash dares to undermine that and try to make Kaladin think his motives were selfish? *all the swears*
A: Moash doesn’t understand—or rather has repudiated—the human need for hope. Even in an unsurvivable situation, it’s better to die with hope and purpose. (Oh, storms, I just reminded myself of “full of hope” and now I’m choking up.)
“I found a way out,” she said, taking the shape of a soldier wearing a scout’s uniform.
P: I simply adore Syl. She’s out there scouting while Kaladin is asleep, protecting him, gathering information for him. And I love it when she does things like wear a scout’s uniform, or a soldier’s uniform. She’s adorable. Thank you Brandon, for Syl.
A: Hear hear! The way her clothing reflects what she’s thinking or feeling or doing is so much fun—especially when she changes it mid-scene because her purpose changes.
“Do you have any idea what that light was that led me in here?”
“I … have a theory,” Syl said. “A long time ago, before things went poorly between spren and humans, there were three Bondsmiths. One for the Stormfather. One for the Nightwatcher. And one other. For a spren called the Sibling. A spren who remained in this tower, hidden, and did not appear to humans. They were supposed to have died long ago.”
P: Spren infodump FTW! While we already know about the Sibling at this point, this is a handy method of letting Kaladin know what’s up with the light that led him to the room.
A: Heh. Sometimes it’s hard to keep track of who knows what. It’s nice when they all catch up with each other!
He touched the gemstone. Despite the fact that he didn’t have any more Stormlight, light appeared deep inside it. A white light that twinkled like a star. It expanded into a small burst of Stormlight, and the door silently split open again.
Kaladin let out a long breath and felt a little of his panic wash away. He wouldn’t die in the darkness.
P: I’m glad we got this little bit of info, I was seriously worried during the beta about how Kaladin was going to get out of that dark room. It was nearly panic-inducing for me, thinking about him in there, essentially alone.
A: Being trapped in there would have been awful. It’s a pity the Sibling can’t pump Light into specific locks as needed, but… that will come later.
He couldn’t afford to think about the long term yet. Those daunting questions—what he was going to do about the tower, the dozens of Radiants in enemy captivity, his family—would need to wait. First he needed water, food, Stormlight, and—most importantly—a better weapon.
P: This was just about a stand up and cheer moment. Like, yass, Kaladin… get it! Once that door opened and his panic ebbed, he was all about getting something done and it’s sooo good to see. And heck yeah, go kick someone’s ass and get a weapon!
A: Huge relief, for sure.
Music, Mechanisms, and Manifestations of Light
A: SO MUCH cool stuff about fabrials in this chapter, I’m almost giddy! But first, I have a question:
“I intentionally don’t keep priority schematics anywhere but in my own head,” Navani lied.
A: If this is a lie, then… where does she keep them, that she doesn’t expect them to be found and her lie revealed? Also, since she’s already thought this through and decided she needs to give up the secrets of the conjoined fabrials that make the airships work, why bother lying about not having full schematics drawn out? Are they just… I don’t know, maybe kept in the same place as some other things she thinks she can either hide or destroy before the invaders find them? So she’s pretending they don’t exist outside her head, to avoid revealing their location? I dunno, but it makes me wonder. In a situation like this, Navani is too smart to lie unnecessarily.
P: This was notable to me, too. She doesn’t hedge at all about sitting down and drawing the schematic so why tell the lie about keeping it only in her head?
A: Well, anyway… we won’t get that answered here, I guess. Meanwhile, I’m going to have a hard time not copying extended sections for this next bit.
“In the past, my kind found it difficult to persuade spren to manifest themselves in the Physical Realm as devices. It seems Voidspren are not as naturally … self-sacrificing as those of Honor or Cultivation.”
A: Heh. If Ulim is at all typical, I’d say definitely not. He’s as self-centered as they come.
P: He’s downright incorrigible.
Navani blinked as the implications of that sank in. Suddenly a dozen loose threads in her mind tied together, forming a tapestry. An explanation. …
Awespren burst around her in a ring of blue smoke. Soulcasters didn’t hold spren because they were spren. Manifesting in the Physical Realm like Shardblades. Spren became metal on this side. Somehow the ancient spren had been coaxed into manifesting as Soulcasters instead of Blades?
A: I’m very pleased with myself: Three years ago (August 13, 2018) I included in my list of “questions for Brandon” whether the ancient fabrials were formed in a way similar to Shardplate or Shardblades—living spren willingly taking on a physical form to enable humans to use them in a specific way, perhaps without needing a Radiant bond to do so. Granted, I was originally thinking more along the lines of the windspren forming Plate than the honorspren forming Blades, but I was thinking along the right lines. I never got the chance to ask the question, so it’s fun to see it confirmed here.
And back to the text, I’m torn between being happy that Raboniel said the right thing for Navani to make this connection, and irritation with her for being supercilious about it. Then again, the Fused weren’t around for the Recreance and are probably not familiar with the details of human history for the past 4500 years, so I suppose she can be forgiven for not knowing about the complete loss of communication with spren.
“You have to use this construction of aluminum wires, rigged to touch the gemstone. That maintains vertical position, but allows the gemstone to be moved horizontally.”
… “Over a year’s worth [of testing],” Navani admitted. “After the initial possibility was theorized.”
A: It appears that Huio’s fortuitous accident in Dawnshard came after the initial theory, but before they’d found a way to make it work. That would explain why Rushu was so immediately excited about what happened with that spanreed; she was at the very least aware of the problem they were trying to solve, if not directly involved in the research.
P: This is nice info to have, I had just assumed that Rushu was nerding out because she’s such a nerd!
A: Well, she is that!
“Did you by chance find any infused spheres in the wreckage?” Specifically, a strange Voidlight one?
“No, Brightness,” Rushu said. “You saw the place. It was in shambles. But I did darken it to see if anything glowed, and saw nothing. Not a hint of Stormlight, or even Voidlight.”
A: Oh, right, that explosion. The one we forgot about in all the chaos. The sphere is gone, but it still has a part to play…
P: Boy, does it ever have a part to play. *sad face*
Spren and Shadesmar
“Syl, where are you?”
P: Kaladin not being able to talk to Syl while he’s sitting in the darkness, lost and alone, is heart-wrenching. What a relief when she returns!
A: Right? There’s that fear, right along with Kaladin, that the Fused were somehow able to capture or incapacitate Syl. She may not be able to manifest as a weapon, nor give him access to Gravitation, but he needs her in so many other ways.
Her appearance brought with it a measure of his sanity. He released a shuddering breath as she flitted down and landed on his outstretched palm.
P: *whew* Knowing that she’s okay and being her little Syl-self is so reassuring. It’s good to see Kaladin relax for a moment.
A: And regain a little hope, because as long as Syl is there, he can’t lose it completely.
Bruised and Broken
“You saved us so we could die,” a voice said from the darkness.
P: *cracks knuckles* This is the first we see of Moash invading Kaladin’s dreams and sending him horrific visions in order to push him to kill himself, which infuriates me. This is his grand plan to keep Kaladin from Odium’s clutches because—despite his self-admitted ideal circumstances—death for Kaladin is better than service to Odium. Huh. Let me see. How about neither, Moash, you murderous traitor! (Note that I refer to him as “Moash” here because that’s all Kaladin knows him as, and this is Kaladin’s POV.)
A: I was going to say how much I hate Moash thinking he knows what’s best for Kaladin, but then I realized that’s exactly what he’s accusing Kaladin of: thinking he knows what’s best for other people. The big difference is that Kaladin gave them hope (even if Moash thinks it was false hope) where Moash can give only despair, and that’s what really makes me angry.
A part of him knew this horror wasn’t real, but he could still hear the screaming. Accusing him. Why did you do this, Kaladin? Why have you killed us?
P: I know what you’re all thinking. Fark Moash. I can say that here, right? Right?
A: Indeed. Especially since Kaladin didn’t kill any of them, and most of the people in this dream are still alive, and glad to be so.
He’d been here. He remembered this place, this storm, lightly raining. This chasm. Where he’d nearly died.
P: I have so much anger toward Moash. I’m apoplectic.
A: I can’t say how many times Moash has sent me into a sputtering incoherent rage.
Moash took a step and dropped into the chasm. Kaladin fell to his knees on the edge, rain streaming around him. He stared down in horror.
P: I don’t know that I’ve ever hated Moash more than at this moment, goading Kaladin with his dilemma at the honor chasm. It’s so petty yet so poignant. Dropping into the chasm like that, as Kaladin was about to do before he decided to dedicate himself to helping the members of Bridge Four, and before Hoid intervened—have I said how this infuriates me? I have? Well good, this should punctuate that.
Oaths Spoken, Powers Awakened
“Why?” Sigzil asked, blood dribbling from his lips. “Why didn’t you let us sleep?”
“This isn’t real. This can’t be real.”
“You should have let us die on the Shattered Plains.”
“I wanted to protect you!” Kaladin shouted. “I had to protect you!”
“You cursed us…”
P: Turning Kaladin’s Oath against him in this vision is just heinous. His drive to protect literally saved his life, and now Moash is using that against him in an effort to get him to kill himself. Blood and bloody ashes, this makes me mad.
Singers/Fused
Raboniel hummed to a rhythm, but Navani couldn’t tell what it represented.
P: It sure would be nice to know which rhythms Raboniel was using in this scene. I’m guessing conceit was one. And maybe command.
A: This is one of the first times we see someone who really uses the rhythms all the time, interacting with a human who is unfamiliar with them. (Rlain does it some, but his use of rhythms is reflected more in his speech; at least around Kaladin, he rarely just hums a rhythm.) It’s kinda fun to see Navani’s impressions—first just “humming” but later describing things like “a quick and dismissive rhythm” and “a quick-paced rhythm.” There are so many, here and later, that we won’t really point them out, but it’s worth watching Navani’s awareness of the rhythms and their meanings develop.
Brilliant Buttresses
“I should like it if your spren were easier to capture in gemstones.”
“I’ll pass the request along,” Navani said.
A: Snort. I’m sure they’ll go along with it if you ask nicely.
P: Especially as enamored of humans as spren are nowadays. /sarcasm
We’ll be leaving further speculation and discussion to you in the comments, so have fun and remember to be respectful of the opinions of others! Next week, we’ll be back with chapter 47, in which we return to… Dalinar! Off to Emul, we are!
Alice is a Sanderson beta reader and administrator of two fandom Facebook groups. She lives in the Pacific Northwest with her husband and two kids, with extended family out back. Less extended family than before, though.
Paige resides in New Mexico, of course. She works full-time, goes to school full-time, beta reads part-time, mods/admins 3 Stormlight-themed Facebook groups part-time, and writes part-time. She wishes sleep wasn’t necessary because there’s just too storming much to do! Links to her other writing are available in her profile.
I am sorry for your loss, Alice. Both my parents had dementia and you are right.–we missed them long before their bodies left us. And it was a sad kind of relief.
I stayed afraid for Navani trying to outsmart Raboniel for the rest of the book. Raboniel seemed too “friendly” after Leshwi’s fear of her.
And my poor Kaladin’s nightmares and fear of being trapped in that dark room…. My real life Kaladin had nightmares about protecting and failing, and would fight in his sleep and wake up screaming and sweating. I had to stay away from him till I could wake him up for fear of injury and them hold him. Thank God the years have made those happen less and less. And I am personally terrified of close places and dark makes that worse.
Storm Moash!!!
My grandmother had a form of dementia, but she was in a different country, so I really didn’t watch her decline, but my brother (who didn’t have dementia) had many problems in his physical and mental health due to a severe case of epilepsy such that when he died 7 years after contracting epilepsy, it was a relief to us to be able to no longer worry about him. His decline was that much. So, sorry for your loss Alice, but at least you know your person is no longer in pain.
Raboniel was a formidable opponent, but like @beth, suggests I thought she was going to be a horrible person after the way that Leshwi built her up, but on the other hand, I liked her a lot, and her horribleness was more because she was “on the wrong side” and not because she was a terrible person.
Alice. Not only is playing politics with a 7,000 year old politician dangerous but potentially worthwhile, it is also necessary. Navani knows that it represents the only hope to start a controlled resistance. One cannot forge a new sword without getting a few sparks on your arms.
Paige. Considering how things turn out, I would say that Navani beats Raboniel at Raboniel’s own game.
Chapter 46 shows the difference between Navani and King T. When faced with seemingly insurmountable odds, Navani is still willing to fight. She may make concessions for the short term, but does nothing to endanger the long goal. King T, on the other hand, was quick to sell out almost the entire human population when his initial plan did not succeed. It was just dumb luck of a wildcard that King T was able to create a more advantageous situation for him personally. However, his good fortune did nothing to help those he previously abandoned. In the end, Navani was able to save almost all of those who she initially sought to save.
When I first read RoW, I had no idea that Kaladin’s nightmare in this chapter was Moash/Odium inspired. I thought it was a normal nightmare due the the events of the preceding day (the occupation and Kaladin’s narrow escape). Brandon did well to build up the nightmare storyline until the resolution of this arc when Hoid protects Kaladin for a bit and gives him some advice as how to fight the dreams.
Alice. Great observation about the need to care for Teft would have caused Kaladin to more easily give into his despair.
I find it interesting that Moash tried to drive Kaladin so mad that Kaladin would kill himself. This was not Odium’s goal. Odium wanted Kaladin so mad that Kaladin would give himself to Odium (so Odium could remove the pain). I wonder what Odium would have done to Moash if Odium realized that Moash’s end goal was for Kaladin to kill himself.
Thanks for reading my musings.
aka the musespren
Quick question for all: in between Desolations, when they are exiled to Braize, do the Fused have forms on Braize? Or are they in stasis? The reason I ask is that I feel to some extent we (and humankind in the story, like Navani in this chapter) overrate the extent of their experience. They have been exiled to Braize for 4500 years, do we know that they are having experiences there that increase their knowledge/experience levels or are they simply waiting in stasis like the Forsaken in RandLand (who also were also very overrated in terms of their age/experience when in fact Rand (with Lews Therin’s mind inside him) and even Cadsuane were their equal/near equal in life experiences)
“Trepidation” sounds more like Navani than Raboniel to me.
Getting back into my ketek theme, it is also a reversal of Kaladin’s Dalinar-sent vision at the end, when Tien appears to deny Kaladin’s guilt in his death.
Is Kaladin the almost-Bondsmith creating a trickle of Stormlight with a tiny Perpendicularity, like mini-Dalinar? How else would Stormlight appear here? Syl is the Stormfather’s daughter, after all, the last surviving offspring of that spren.
Again, I have to say that Raboniel is a wonderful villain. She isn’t evil in the way of Moash or contemptable like King T (I agree with AndrewHB). Navani keeps getting “taken in” because she can admire some of what makes Raboniel more than she seemed at first.Raboniel is a master player and in her own way is training Navani in that art as well as the art of the fabrial.
My question in this chapter is about the Soul casters being spren in the physical world. I wonder why they stay “stuck” in Soul caster form. Does this mean they were once bonded to radiants also and the recreance made them dead eyes like the other spren? Did I miss something?
Also, since she’s already thought this through and decided she needs to give up the secrets of the conjoined fabrials that make the airships work, why bother lying about not having full schematics drawn out?
I read this as keeping some cards up her sleeve – if she really has them all safely hidden (and very likely at least some of them together), then that way she can choose what to reveal, and when to reveal. Isn’t it less likely she will be simply killed so soon if there are confirmed schematics she can be persuaded/forced to draw instead of having the bother of obtaining them in a more arduous way from other scholars who have (supposedly) never seen them?
Carl @5, How else would Stormlight appear here?
I may be wrong and cannot remember right now if it was confirmed later, but I interpreted it as simply the working of the locking mechanism – once a Radiant infused the stone, the stormlight in it was dormant in it and did not draw attention to the lock by glowing until the lock was needed again, in which case it reactivated at the touch until finally running out.
My guess is that she has other schematics that she doesn’t want Raboniel to know about or ideas that she has sketched out that could be dangerous in the wrong hands.
@@.-@ – They must have forms, because they catch and torture the Heralds.
The soulcasters are rather different from the shardblades in that they don’t seem to be wholly manifested. Didn’t somebody – maybe even Navani, report in RoW that when they looked at the soulcasters in the Cognitive, there were “sleeping” spren seemingly bound to them? My understanding is that Radiant spren vanish completely from the Cognitive when summoned as blades – the deadeyes certainly do.
Oh, and what about the spren that manifested the supressor fabrial used in part 1? They were wide awake IIRC and they must have been an Odium spren, right?
Concerning Raboniel, I am pretty sure that she honestly earned her previous moniker and that she was utterly terrible in the past. I am sure that the Herald flashbacks in the back 5 will present her in all her villanious glory. It is just that by the time of RoW she badly wanted the eternal war to end more than anything else, and that she really hit it off with Navani. And Doylistically Kaladin couldn’t have handled a more oppressive/bloody occupation, so the Fused had to be mellowed down, which I found to be a little disappointing. I am sure if not for that the things would have been much harsher in Urithiru.
Brent @@.-@, Austin @9:
What we heard until now is pretty contradictory – there was a talk of some Fused still needing to “awaken”, while others seem to have planned stuff for millenia and/or tortured Taln (and others before Aharietam). We also now that spren in the Cognitive can be tortured, so the Heralds wouldn’t have needed to have physical bodies ditto and neither would the Fused doing it.
@10:
From all the way back to the Prelude in WoK, from Kalak’s POV:
Austin @11:
If the cognitive selves of the Heralds closely mirror their physical ones what you quoted could still happen without a body. We already know that the cognitive enties can be tortured. Alternatively, the Fused might have been able to get into the minds of the Heralds and make them experience the torture “virtually”. Or maybe you are right and the Heralds are provided with bodies on Braize.
As to the Fused themselves, they certainly wouldn’t need a body to torture somebody whil in the Cognitive, nor would the spren. And, in fact, given what we know about how the Fused are normally embodied, it seems highly unlikely that Odium would spring for investiture-created bodies for them on Braize.
Regarding the epigraph, I’m of the opinion that it’s Raboniel. As we find out at the end, one of her main focuses for this research was to find a way to permanently kill her daughter who had gone mad. She is probably feeling “trepidation and hope” because she hopes to give her daughter peace and hopes to finally bring an end to the war, but is also trepidatious about what the unintended consequences might be for the Singers and Fused if she does discover what she hopes to and maybe a little trepidatious about what will happen to her if Odium finds out what she’s really trying to do.
@10 – I am pretty certain Radiant spren and deadeyes don’t actually disappear from the Cognitive Realm when summoned as Shardblades. In Oathbringer Captain Ico’s father is a deadeye and has to be kept in a cage in the hold of Ico’s ship so he doesn’t go wandering off. Ico never mentions his father randomly disappearing from the cage and then having to go find him again.
Struggling to keep up with the reread these days, but wanted to pop in and say I am so sorry for your loss, Alice. My grandmother moved in with my parents last year because she suffers from Alzheimer’s, and it has been so hard on my mom. It is a peculiar kind of pain watching your loved ones struggle to remember their families.
Hopefully I can get it together once school starts and actually catch up on the reread.
@lance, #13:
Reading this triggered a thought … Kaladin would be furious at Raboniel. His act of redemptive genius in this book is inventing therapy for the traumatized, and he’s prepared to devote his life to it. Meanwhile Raboniel’s only solution to seeing a damaged loved one is to kill her.
@carl, #15:
That’s a very interesting line of thought I’d not considered, and I think you’re right. Kaladin would absolutely have done everything in his power to save Raboniel’s daughter had he known what she was up to. Continuing with it, do you think his opinion would be changed at all if he knew that her madness wasn’t the result of battle fatigue but rather the result of millennia of being killed and reborn? I can definitely see him still trying to find a way to help her.
Just for the sake of discussion, what do you think would happen in that scenario? My own opinion is that, even knowing the millennia of death and rebirth had caused her madness and it couldn’t be fixed in any way he knew, he’d still try. After his story arc in this book I am like you, I can’t see him accepting death as a mercy (even if, in my own opinion, in this case Raboniel was probably right). Kaladin being who he is, I think he’d actually try and start a Fused support group the same way he did for the soldiers. He’s not the sort to care about the social ostracization that would bring him. I could also see him getting Lift, Renarin, and Rlain involved somehow. They all have access to the surge of Progression and, although we’ve not seen it be able to cure madness or other mental diseases, I can see that group doing everything they can to try. If nothing else, their efforts might get through to the rest of the Fused and lay the foundation for discussions in the future.
YMMV, of course, but thank you for pointing that out. It made for a fun train of thought trip this morning.
@15, 16
But this assumes that life “uber alles”, I don’t know what Kaladin would think, but as Raboniel only watches her daughter suffer for millennia, giving her daughter the gift of death was a true gift.
@17
I tend to agree with you. What I was saying earlier was really more of a thought experiment exploring how Kaladin would feel given his experiences. My own thoughts are, as you said, that permanent death and an end to the fight was a gift Raboniel gave to her daughter.
@jer, I wasn’t saying Kaladin would be correct, just that I think that’s how he would react, especially before his vision of Tien. I tend to agree with you.
@lance, I can definitely see Kaladin trying to help the Fused, if they’d let him. In Book Five, we’ll see him trying to help Szeth, I’m sure, and a mad Herald.
@17 Jer and @19 Carl:
I came across this WoB from just before RoW came out that talked about the Heralds’ madness being largely supernatural (although not entirely) and that the Fused’s madness is related to the Heralds’ madness. I thought it was interesting in light of the discussion we’ve been having. It looks like poor Kaladin could do everything in his power for the Fused and it still wouldn’t be enough. In light of that, I wonder if his thoughts on (permanent) death as a mercy would change.
Personally, I hope this is something he never finds out about unless/until someone discovers a way to fix the supernatural cause of the madness. If he were to learn about it now I think it would be the cause of another spiral for him. I don’t see him ever accepting that death can be a mercy (except maybe for himself, but I think he’s finally starting to move away from that viewpoint). The very idea would be anathema to the surgeon in him, and even the soldier in him is all about protecting people from dying. Being faced with the options of either leaving someone in an incurable state of madness for the rest of their lives (which, given they’re cognitive shadows would be a very long time), probably having to keep them confined for their own safety as well as others most of the time, or permanently killing them would cause him to freeze up just like he did on the battlefield.
Maybe that’s another reason Sanderson is having Kaladin go with Szeth. I imagine the things Navani learned about the Raysium dagger and anti-*light are going to start making their way through Urithiru, or at least through Dalinar’s inner circle and the coalition leadership, fairly quickly given their potential uses in Dalinar and Odium’s contest. Rather than have to deal with Kaladin learning all this and how he would react Sanderson is having him conveniently be somewhere else.
Of course, Kaladin is also supernatural. There’s also a WoB that the Windrunners are very similar to the Bondsmiths. It’s perfectly plausible to me that a Fifth Ideal Kaladin would find a way to help the Heralds.
I’ve never been able to get past Raboniel having long ago created and unleashed a devastatingly deadly disease pandemic on humans and singers, even if it was less impactful than she intended. But I seldom found her on-page portrayal very dislikable.
My mother is terrified of potentially developing dementia, frequently freaking out at any sign of faulty memory. I think it’s probably her greatest fear with regard to things happening to her. (Things happening to her children might be a greater fear.) I don’t know how I’ll endure losing her to anything, as she is and has always been the foundation of my world, but losing her to dementia seems in some ways most worthy of dread. Wishing you strength, Alice.
@many – Thank you all, and know that you’re not alone in your grief either. I have a much deeper understanding, now, of what the families go through. It was hard losing my own parents, but I’m now profoundly grateful that neither of them experienced dementia in the process.
I, too, have very mixed feelings about Raboniel. She was set up to be a horrific character, and yet she shows Navani more respect than many humans – the humans tend to respect her position, where Raboniel respects her self, and that put a very different light on her. She’s brutal in some ways – brutally pragmatic, and absolutely committed to ending this terrible cycle of dying and returning for her people – but she’s also extremely intelligent and excited about discovery for its own sake. (Though she never ever forgets to look for ways she can turn discoveries to her own purposes…) She’s a very faceted character; one of the best Sanderson has ever written, IMO.
@Wetlandernw: I think Raboniel and her interaction with Navani are easily the best thing about Rhythm.
Moash jumping into the cliff is in some ways like a twisted version of Clarence in It’s a Wonderful Life.
Some really heavy thoughts here on death, annihilation, mercy, suffering – I’ll admit I err on the side of death is almost never the mercy we think it is (and Moash clearly takes this to an extreme – the existence of basically any suffering is enough for him to say we should all just kill ourselves) although there is a lot of depth to that position. That drives a lot of my ethical underpinnings even as I struggle with a form of depression that drives me to nihilism.
But yes, I never thought about how Kaladin and Raboniel’s view of her daughter might differ. Especially since, in Raboniel’s daughter’s case, it doesn’t even seem like there’s a hope of a natural death until which at least some measure of palliative care/dignity could be offered. In a scenario like that, death might literally be a release/gift.
I do love the idea of Kaladin having a Fused support group :)